15K BL loses to 535 BL - Case Study
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  1. #1
    Drill Master MAtkins is on a distinguished road
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    15K BL loses to 535 BL - Case Study



    I've got a competitive keyword I've been working for over 2 years. It turns out there's not much money in it but I guess it's one of the 'hot' ones new SEO wannabees find early.
    Now I make small change on it and use it for educational purposes.

    I've got a page that I nurtured to a PR 5, which it still is, on a PR 4 domain (home page) and it's designed to sell product (a money page). It is SEO optimized for the target keyword.

    MajesticSEO.com recognizes over 15K of backlinks to it from over 1100 unique domains. Most are pretty direct keyword phrase anchored. One is from another PR 6 blog I own the link is in content, on the PR 6 page and on other pages on the site. I've got backlinks from a number of PR 5 pages from sites (all unique C Class IPs), etc. all in content on pages that are on topic.

    I know I've got at least 1,000 backlinks from PR 3 or higher sites (that I own) in content (no blogroll, sidebar, etc.) on pages that are on topic, at least 60 domains, all unique C-Class IPs.

    It's on page 23 in the SERPS. it was once on page 1.

    I've got another page on blogspot that was created just for backlinks to the money page. It's still up after about a year and a half and still has the link.
    MajesticSEO claims 535 links on a total of 235 unique domains.
    These were almost all xRumer blast, etc. bunk links.

    It's on page 2 in the SERPS.

    I've got another PR 4 money page selling the same product on the domain as the PR 5 on page 23. This other page uses a different keyword, significantly less competitive and w/ less hits. It's on page 1.

    It looks like my PR 5 money page was pretty much black listed but if so, why not the other PR 4 money page? The content is real close to the same on both pages.


  2. #2
    Veteran Kris333 is an unknown quantity at this point
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    When the website fell in the search results?
    Maybe its about the optimization?
    Whats the keyword density on site? And check duplicate content (you said that the content of two your pages is really close).


  3. #3
    Shaman adhoc has a spectacular aura about adhoc has a spectacular aura about
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    lol, hardly a case study... There are so many other factors your not looking at.

    In it's simplest form:
    Domain Authority + Page Authority + Optimized Anchors - Over-Optimized anchors (Penguin) = Rank
    Before you could Mass link build to basically overcome Domain & Page Authority... now you have to be a little smarter how you get there.

    I look at Domain Authority as a compound multiplier of sorts to the Page Authority. Sort of like, 500 PR1's = 1 PR3.
    If you can get a link from a Branded Domain in your Niche that has established Authority it can really boost your ranks.

    Page Authority is something every SEO should be aiming for, which really breaks down to relevancy but also includes quality, length, and uniqueness of the content your links being placed on.

    Content that is "similar" to you, is probably damn near identical to a computer. If it's "similar" as in the same topic but clearly two different thoughts, your fine- but that spun shit or a couple changes here and there is not going to cut it anymore (and I bet will be the target of a near-future algo update)

    I've got at least 1,000 backlinks from PR 3 or higher sites (that I own)
    You own 1,000+ backlinks all PR3 or higher? Heh, something sounds fishy. How many <PR3 linking back do you own as well? Are you talking 1-page Blogspot type sites or what?

    If you have 1k domains, PR3 or higher YOU own, all on topic with authority backing them- and still not ranking for a not-that-competitive keyword (I say that because there's not much money it it) your doing something wrong, like duplicate content, 301's, shit/spun content... etc.


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  5. #4
    Drill Master MAtkins is on a distinguished road
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    adhoc:
    I always appreciate your feedback)

    "I've got at least 1,000 backlinks from PR 3 or higher sites (that I own) "
    The rest of that line was:
    "on pages that are on topic, at least 60 domains, all unique C-Class IPs"
    You musta just woke up. You don't usually miss stuff like this that easy.

    The keyword is very competitive, at least from my perspective.
    I do notice that the top spots change about every 3 to 6 months though.
    Maybe I'm just not marketing it right. I can't squeeze more than about $500.00 a month out of it.
    Google Keyword tracker says about 18K per month Global.
    Avg. CPC is $2.22 right now, in the past it's been over $4.00 at times.

    I was getting about 1500 hits per month for a bit but was only selling about 1 in a thousand.
    I tried a few different money pages but they all hit about the same.

    I've got some domain authority on the money SITE - I've got 4 PR 4 pages, all money pages; all in the same category; in fact all selling the same products.
    The text was hand written by me.
    The pitch is basically the same but there's no way a bot is going to see duplicate content.

    My blogs are in pretty good standing with google, content is added every day.
    Agreed though, lots of spun garbage - but hey, it's on topic)
    I use TBS for spinning content.

    I've got links on my blogs (mostly spun and probably way too many); forum profiles; blog comments; directories; article sites; bookmarking sites; RSS feed sites . . .
    I use xRumer, Scrapebox, I was using the backlinking tool on BHSeos.com for awhile;
    Lots of backlinks to the backlinks . . .

    So tell me if this looks like my problem:
    1. Thousands of spun articles on about 60 sites - these articles make up about 15% of all the content on the sites.
    2. Very consistent keyword phrase in most anchors across the board

    What else???


  6. #5
    Shaman adhoc has a spectacular aura about adhoc has a spectacular aura about
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    lol, I did just wake up but my curiosity is still there.

    You own all 60 domains that are => PR3?
    Of those 60 domains, you've created 1,000's of backlinks to your Money site.
    That's how I understand what you said.

    I'm not trying to be negative at all, what your doing should work very well.
    I said, something seems fishy because your ranks aren't holding... which was why I questioned if you really own all 60 domains (have control of the entire sites content/niche). If so, I would pay some foreigners/kids to manually rewrite the garbage spun articles in their own words and re-post so they are more unique.

    The other reason I was curious if you have control over all 60 domains was because if you can brand authority in the same/similar niche as your money page with those 60 domains, IMO a lot of your anchor rich link-building should be ok.

    The problem isn't just anchor Over-Optimization on the First tier though, it's through-out the tiers. Building tons of links to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tiers will help to a certain point if the content is written well enough for Google to understand it, in it's own context (without realizing its duplicated/spun) and apply the appropriate weight to the right search queries... but that's not typically the case and anchor blasting will only make things worse for those tiers.

    The whole anchor thing IMO comes down to Google understanding that most "persuading" Anchor rich links are coming from influential/authoritative domains/people. In a perfect world Google would rank based completely off the content presented on a page. Since they are far from perfect, they provide means to "adjust" their understanding of your sites content by anchor rich links. They can't do away with it but they can easily correct the anchor-abuse problem by only accepting, within a certain ratio, "persuading" Anchor rich links from experts in the niche... for a site- that is the Domain Authority. Even sites with low Domain Authority in your niche can still pass niche Authority through a branded Author... which is where Social comes in to play a little more.

    Take CNN for example:
    CNN.com is known for News. They have their section broken down into categories like CNN.com/Entertainment... so on.
    Money.CNN.com is known for Financial news and has it's own sub-domain.
    Ever wonder why that is? Why not just have a Money section/category on CNN? CNN.com/Money?

    If you have domain Authority in the Financial Sector like Money.CNN has, you can push a lot more juice towards another Financial site if you want.
    Plus your not just a News site that happen to report on something Financially related... you are dedicated to the Financial sector. If the normal person read something about the Stock Market on Yahoo.com, Aol.com, or Money.CNN.com- which would seem more "Authoritative" in your eye's? That is the domain authority I speak of.


    Sry for the long post.. All in all, I think the 2 things you've mentioned in your last post are what's put the hurt on but above is why I said what I did in my previous post.


  7. #6
    Drill Master MAtkins is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    You own all 60 domains that are => PR3?
    Of those 60 domains, you've created 1,000's of backlinks to your Money site.
    That's how I understand what you said.
    Yep - cept I just ran through them - only 39 are still PR 3+ - many dropped to PR 2 and below.
    They're all - syndicated - auto post - every day.
    Most are up for annual registration - I'll probably drop about half of them

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    I'm not trying to be negative at all, what your doing should work very well.
    NP - the truth will set me free I HOPE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    I said, something seems fishy because your ranks aren't holding... which was why I questioned if you really own all 60 domains (have control of the entire sites content/niche). If so, I would pay some foreigners/kids to manually rewrite the garbage spun articles in their own words and re-post so they are more unique.
    I had 80 but dropped 20 last year. I had about 20 free sites too. I don't know how many are still up.
    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    The other reason I was curious if you have control over all 60 domains was because if you can brand authority in the same/similar niche as your money page with those 60 domains, IMO a lot of your anchor rich link-building should be ok.
    You give me hope here!
    I have a category on each site in the general niche. They're all news syndication sites.
    I'm all ears though - I can't figure out how to make money with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    The problem isn't just anchor Over-Optimization on the First tier though, it's through-out the tiers. Building tons of links to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tiers will help to a certain point if the content is written well enough for Google to understand it, in it's own context (without realizing its duplicated/spun) and apply the appropriate weight to the right search queries... but that's not typically the case and anchor blasting will only make things worse for those tiers.
    I notice that about 15 of my blog pages are outranking my money page.
    The Web2 pages are doing the best.
    I've got backlinks on second & third tiers - mostly spun badly - GOY style <grin> - but anchors are a bit more diverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    The whole anchor thing IMO comes down to Google understanding that most "persuading" Anchor rich links are coming from influential/authoritative domains/people. In a perfect world Google would rank based completely off the content presented on a page. Since they are far from perfect, they provide means to "adjust" their understanding of your sites content by anchor rich links. They can't do away with it but they can easily correct the anchor-abuse problem by only accepting, within a certain ratio, "persuading" Anchor rich links from experts in the niche... for a site- that is the Domain Authority. Even sites with low Domain Authority in your niche can still pass niche Authority through a branded Author... which is where Social comes in to play a little more.
    Social? Are you talking about establishing 'authority profiles' on sites like facebook; twitter & linkedin? That's time consuming - you'd have to be pretty sure about your niche I'm guessing.
    Though my sites aren't specific to the niche, the category is and the pages are (except that most really are poorly spun).

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    Take CNN for example:
    CNN.com is known for News. They have their section broken down into categories like CNN.com/Entertainment... so on.
    Money.CNN.com is known for Financial news and has it's own sub-domain.
    Ever wonder why that is? Why not just have a Money section/category on CNN? CNN.com/Money? . . .
    Hmm, interesting. All my blogs are general news syndication sites WP sites with categories. I've got a couple challenges to overcome here.

    Quote Originally Posted by adhoc View Post
    Sry for the long post.. All in all, I think the 2 things you've mentioned in your last post are what's put the hurt on but above is why I said what I did in my previous post.
    I appreciate the long post. I've got hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in SEO can still can't make more than peanuts.

    Part of my problem is spending a lot of money on a project that I'm not sure will pay.
    I think this particular niche 'looks' real lucrative and the keywords aren't that hard to 'find'. I wouldn't be surprised if you've tried it. Larceny did and he said he didn't do very well (years ago).

    So, I'm adverse to making the financial & time investment to reposition whole sites that google clearly likes as they are; paying for writing, etc. only to learn that the niche was a dud (which is what happened).

    I used to get people to write but couldn't get more than about 30 (badly written) 300 word articles for less than $100.00. I've been using seogenerals.com
    Pretty pricey unless I was getting a pretty fat ROI.

    Hmm, did you apologize for a long post?? Uh oh!!


  8. #7
    Shaman adhoc has a spectacular aura about adhoc has a spectacular aura about
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    You have a good amount to work with, 60 domain private network.
    Beyond adsense, I don't know how I would go about monetizing the current sites.

    Personally, I would start by finding a niche that looks like it has a good potential. Make sure the traffic is there, adsense is there, and make sure there are products to sell in Affiliate networks.

    Pick about 10-15 of those domains and fill them with content about your product. The idea would be to create a Micro-Niche network, rather than a syndication of news that allows you to randomly place links. This is a more theme driven network to build domain authority for your main money site.

    So say, my Main money site is for the Keyword "Job Training" where I am selling all my affiliate products and earning big money.
    Micro-Site 1 might be about "Job Training programs"
    Micro-Site 2 might be about "Military Job Training"
    Micro-Site 3 might be about "Careers with On the Job Training"
    Micro-Site 4 might be about "Job Training Grants"
    ...etc- Micro sites about the bigger Niche subject.

    It doesn't take tons to build Domain Authority in a Micro-Niche and you might be able to accomplish it with your Autoblogger/spun content but I'd be careful. Its a little easier to monetize hand written posts as well... those may actually rank for good keywords if any research was done before starting.

    Once you get on topic posts covering all the info about those Micro-Niche's, send a front page anchor rich link with a sticky relevant post to your money page for the Full domain Juice/domain Authority push in that Niche for the specific keyword. For each of these types of niche-authoritative sites, I'm allowing [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] to be built in hope to avoid Over-Optimization yet maximize the use of Anchor rich links that really help "persuade" the SERPs.


    There could be tons of reason Web2's are outdoing a lot of other content. My first guess would be because their Domain + Page Authority is out-weighing the effect of the over-optimized anchors. Your blog pages are probably outranking your Money page because they aren't as over-optimized for the specific term your trying to rank your Money site for and they all have high PR. The blogs are syndicated news so the domains are covering a wide variety of subjects/niche's and while 5 of your 100 pages might be over optimized hardcore cause they link to your money page - the overall Domain Authority of the content is spread out enough that it out-weighs the over-optimization enough to still rank the page.


    Social. I'm leaning more towards G+ because you get pretty pictures in the SERPs but basically, yes.
    It doesn't take much time, you can buy like 100 Gmails/G+'s for $15 bucks or something if you look around.
    Once you have those, set one up for each Micro-site.
    Every time you post, link the post to the Author.... not only will you get that pretty picture in the SERPs to draw attention but you will build niche authority for that profile with the linked posts. Once you have an Authoritative person in the niche, "Guest Post" around/Write Articles using your micro-site expert Social Profile person to give that Domain/Niche Authority in places that normally wouldn't provide it.

    If you think about it, how does Google know that Rand Fishkin (from SEOMoz) is an expert in SEO? While his friends or circles might influence him, they don't make him an expert. Just because you don't have friends or in with the crowd doesn't mean you don't know what your talking about either. Rand can post anywhere and still pass a lot of weight to any pages related to his Niche. My point is, you have to display/claim your knowledge in order to build social authority in a niche and there are multiple ways of doing so. An easy way to do that is by laying claim to your Micro-site posts then turning around and using those "experts" to further link-build to your Money site. I think there are Wordpress plug-ins that will do this automatically but I wrote my own blogging platform in .Net so I can manage the network better (not a fan of php/mysql) so I'm not real sure.


    I'm treating my micro-sites as sub-money-sites. The content is good, well written, not spun, unique, multiple languages, and well laid out. Each site is researched to make the most of adsense type of advertising or if I can work in affiliate offers as well, I will. They don't need to be updated every day, just enough to establish and maintain authority in that micro-niche. You don't make tons from the micro-sites unless you did them really well and/or build links much but you can easily pull in $50 a month from each off adsense type advertising alone. Just depends on how much time you put into them and how much effort goes into building decent links for them.


  9. #8
    Drill Master MAtkins is on a distinguished road
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    That helps an awful lot. I never thought about using the blogs like this.
    I read it 3 times and I'll read it some more)

    I'm a little worried about changing the content for fear (and it's happened to me) that Google will strip my PR & my clout.
    They're really used to seeing new content, syndicated, every day on all these sites.
    Most of my home pages are static though to keep the PR I bought with the sites.

    Also, about adsense - I'm thinking that if I add my adsense account to my blogs Google will know the same person owns them all.
    Right now,they're under WhoIs protection and each site is on a separate C-Class IP - Google doesn't know the same person owns them.
    Right now I pay $1.00 per month per IP.

    Right now, 60 sites are easy to maintain - I don't even look at them for months on end.
    I wrote my auto-scraper/blogger in php. I know C# too though & have Visual Studio 2010.

    I'll have to get used to a lot more work - writing articles I guess)
    I hate the content I get from the Far East.

    OK, I'll try one niche that's looking pretty good to me and see where it takes me.
    I'm going to have to research G+. Any idea where I might buy those gmails?
    I'll ask more about this after I do some research . . .



 

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